tv Taiwan Outlook PBS October 23, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
♪ >> thanks for joining us for the france 24 debate. the u.s. spying on friends and foe alike, and apparently, air is not anything people can do abut it area lawmakers are up in arms over the extent, but their indignant is likely to not have much impact. with the american big brother. how can it protect its secrets,
and who else is fighting this war? we have our guests this evening right after this world news. but these are the headlines. thousands of tunisians take to the streets, calling on the government to resign, this as national dialogue is set to get underway. barack obama is set to meet the pakistan prime minister for the first time, and he will likely bring up the horny issue of drone strikes. and the risk has been avoided. no mega fire in australia, but the fire is still burning across new south wales, and residents are told to be extremely vigilant create an in tunisia, there have been deadly clashes between the guard and the militants, at least 17 police officers killed and some militants. we understand that national guard members were fired on as they approached a house in the hills in one village.
that violence came as talks aimed at ending the country's political crisis are set to get underway. we understand that the islamic government will confirm their resigning, and that is what these protesters want, and then it would give way to technocrats. >> screaming for their government to resign, hundreds of government opposition protesters call on the prime minister to make good on his promise to step down. >> there is no progress here in terms of economic development or from politics, from what we have seen so far. terrorism on the tunisian border. or those who took part in the revolution, there is no progress and no development. >> over the weekend, the he will step down and is expected to make the announcement just hours before
the ruling party sits down with the opposition for the first day of a national dialogue. the political dialogue calls for the formation of a caretaker cabinet with in three weeks, the adoption of a new constitution in the first month of talks, and scheduling fresh parliamentary and residential elections. >> the sticking point. are we going to have a government where people are not politicians but are supervised by a commission of parties, or will it be a national union government, and then politicians will be in the government? >> the talks are aimed at ending months of political deadlock, with the crisis reaching its peak in july with the killing of a politician. >> now, the pakistan prime minister is gearing up for his first taste to face talks with the american president. at the top of his list, drone strikes along the pakistan border. they are providing new details
about the alleged victims. catherine clifford reports now on the rocky u.s. -- pakistan relationship. >> the u.s. and pakistan try to get back on solid ground after years of bumpy relations. this is the highest level of talks between the two states for years. however, tensions remain at u.s. drone strikes aimed in isolated parts of the country. the prime minister says he will be bringing up the issue with obama. >> the drone strikes which have disturbed and agitated our people. this issue has become an affect in our bilateral relationship as well. i will stress an end to the drone attacks. >> from 400 to and more. it is said the strikes may violate international laws,
which the u.s. firmly denies. >> we take extraordinary care to make sure our counterterrorism efforts are in accordance with all applicable law. before we take any moves, there must be near certainty that no civilians will be killed or injured, and that is the highest standard weekend set. >> in 2011, u.s. commandos killed al qaeda leader osama bin laden at his hideout. ties were so strained that the u.s. suspended its aid to the country. then, the killing of 24 pakistani soldiers further your attended the situation. but leaders have in making moves to put the past behind them, with the u.s. giving $1.6 billion in aid to pakistan. or more on the prime minister's visit to washington, i spoke to someone from the university of paris about how winning over people back, is quite another thing. >> 74% last year identified the
u.s. as an enemy. this is contrary to the u.s. counterterrorism operations. there is support that it needs as it begins to withdraw from pakistan. they need the pakistanis behind u.s. policy and not against it. as pakistan moves forward, in control of its own situation in the tribal areas, the better i think it will be, and the u.s. will have to step back. as it stands right now, the u.s. is not able to do that, because it wants to target the lower- level taliban. giving them sanctuary and attacking in afghanistan. >> russia has dropped piracy charges against the peace activist involved in last month's arctic protest.
they have been faced with a lesser charge of hooliganism. vladimir putin, the president, said last month that he did not and the activists were pirates. and to australia, where fears of several fires could form one huge inferno have eased, but some are still burning in new south wales, and there are fresh challenges that lie ahead. this as it emerged as an army explosives exercise started the biggest fire. a report. >> making a break for safety before the flames get too close for comfort, wildfires are still blazing in new south wales, and residents were being evacuated from their homes on wednesday, bringing only the most essential of personal projects. >> we took the dog and papers we have our insurance papers and
our wills, etc.. >> strong winds have fanned the fires across the state. over 200 houses were lost to the blaze last week. the fire service had advised people to leave their homes. yet, some locals say they are prepared to stay put until the very last minute. >> we are jus going to go and stay inside. we have got everything all ready, in case. it is not definite that we have to go. we will just stay here until it is mandatory. >> an investigation revealed that one of the largest fires had been caused by a military exercise when explosives were used at an army range. authorities say they have averted the worst of the threat, and prime minister tony abbott all this part of the experience. >> we should take strong action
against it, but these fires are certainly not a factor of climate change. they are just a factor of life in australia. >> emergency alerts remain in place to the north of sydney, as well as alerts in surrounding cities. >> a german bishop dubbed the bishop of blame has been suspended by the vatican. he is accused of spending more than 31 million euros on renovating his official residence. a few days ago, he discussed the matter with pope francis. it is not known how long he will spend away from the diocese or what he will do while an inquiry is held. and in the u.k., it is george's day. we are talking about prince william son. the three month old has been christened in central london. now, here is our correspondent there with more on the rather low key event.
>> it is a very high profile but a very close profile affair. just a few meters from where i am standing, not, indeed, at buckingham palace, behind me, which is where william was christened in the music room. but this is over there in the chapel royal, a special chapel, but only 22 guest this afternoon. among them, seven godparents, four godfathers and three godmothers, and then there is zara, the cousin of prince william, and it is really a message that kate and william are sending out, a strong message, that even though this young boy is set to become a future monarch of this country, he is, in fact, a little boy who is getting christened today, and really they want that privacy for him that is so important, and we will not get any photographs of this christening,
i gather, until tomorrow. there was one taken at the end of the christening service, and that will be with the queen, and then three future monarchs, and charles, the grandfather of the prince, his father, prince william, and then prince george himself. that will be quite an iconic photograph that we are looking forward to seeing tomorrow.p>> e newsroom. it is time to hand it over for "debate." >> and we will get another recap of the headlines in about 20 minutes. and american allies are both angry and in barest after more on the extent of nsa spying around the world. mexicans president wants more information on being spied on, and the public found out this week that the nsa illegally collected some 17 million pieces of data last year, including
phone messages and e-mails targeting people, businesses, the french embassy in washington even. should the rest of the world be fighting back? with us is the head of the cyber strategy department, of cyber strategy at the french institute of national defense. thank you. and with us as well is a professor at the university here in paris, a member of the computer science department. thanks for being with us. another has just joined us, a political commentator and analyst. euro maestro, is that right? but right. >> and author of "the shadow factory," he will be with us for the very first part of the show, at first, let's get your recap
of the reactions to the revelations on the nsa spying around the world. >> they are calling the snooping on the settable -- unacceptable. revelations of the nsa spying on friends in mexico. the u.s. key ally in south america has launched an nvestigation into allegations the nsa hacked the e-mails of the president and his predecessor. mexican officials want the u.s. to launch an inquiry of their own. >> we have repeatedly expressed and do so again today are strong condemnation, and we call on president barack obama to carry out as soon as possible the investigation he promised to our president. >> mexico and france are just the latest in a growing list of countries angered by the nsa activities on their soil. so far, the strongest reaction
has come from brazil, with a state visit to washington being canceled, while german chancellor angela merkel called for an end to cold war era surveillance. >> that the u.s. can no longer be trusted as a partner in protecting citizen privacy, as well as in intelligence sharing. >> while u.s. secretary of state john kerry was trying to reassure european governments, james clapper said the french report was inaccurate and misleading, a move that is unlikely to help washington restore trust among its allies around the world. >> the first question to james in washington, who is following the debate on the phone, you have worked and written extensively on various american intelligence agencies, including the nsa. why does america have to spy on countries that it traditionally works close with, like france? >> i think they want to find out
what is going on in france because of economic and political things happening in europe. france plays such an important role in european economics and european politics, so i do not find it very surprising that the nsa would focus on french government officials or french government offices, and they are also interested in what is happening in north africa, but what is surprising, and this is my opinion also, the amount of spying that is done on individual citizens in france, 70 million communications in one month, for example. so i think it is overkill. the nsa is developing a huge amount of data, not just in france but all over the world and the united states, and an electronic haystack.
the more difficult it is then to find that elusive electronic needle that may point to a terrorist action >> hold on, james. there is a certain part of the situation i did not follow. you say that america is essentially pursuing interest beyond counterterrorism, lyrical agendas, economic agendas, so what is the data collection for when it comes to just private individuals and not political leaders and businessmen? what is that for? >> the same thing done in the united states, they are looking for indications of potential terror, and they look for names and phrases. words that people use, any kind of information that may lead to somebody who could be engaged in terrorism.
it has not worked very well in the united states. , and the information that they have produced has not produced great revelations. i think it is a situation of the nsa getting your money than they need, eavesdropping far more than they have to. >> potential overkill there from the nsa, collecting so much data from so many individuals. let's see how the overkill is playing out over at the european parliament in strasbourg. a member of the green party of the european parliament joins us. what are you calling on european leaders to do about this? >> i think european leaders have to react now on the five months
old revelations by edward snowden. there is no reaction. we need to safeguard the rights of european citizens, and i just have to say that, for example, the u.s. privacy act is not protecting european citizens, so we have a huge loophole, and this has to be fixed right now. >> i can see jean pierre agreeing with you. >> there are a series of protections passed by the parliament. in terms of the swift records in the banking transactions, where the u.s. has just disregarded the commitments they have made in terms of the protections. >> lawmakers, in fact, said they want to limit the information shared with washington. sharing financial data that is concentrated in brussels, and
there had to be american guarantees as to how they would use that information, and you feel there is a breakdown in trust, and they want to limit their information sharing. is that right? >> that is absolutely correct. the european commissioner of justice says that what she feels the u.s. is doing is completely illegal, and the concern is that europe and the united states have signed a number of records, and there were various assurances about how the data would be used, and it seems that the u.s. is not respecting its obligations. >> just to follow up on that in strasbourg, you say you want european leaders to make this a central issue, but this is not so much about what is legal and what is not legal. it is more about what europe can actually do to protect this information. this is spying. >> of course.
a question of whether it is legal, and when they meet, i think they will talk about it being a violation of the fundamental rights, and it cannot be accepted. not by the nsa or other authorities, nor by members in member states, like the u.k. or france. >> the on the political declarations, we have french officials saying this is unacceptable, since the beginning of the week. the declarations, you are a representative of the people. what can actually be done? >> i think we need strong protection for data, for personal data, in the european union and transatlantic lee, and the proposed regulation that the european parliament voted on monday has to be adopted before the european elections in 2014,
and this has to be signaled by the heads of state, and it has to be accomplished by the member states. >> from the french institute of international defense studies, what can be done? >> that is a quick question -- good question. there is what could be done and what should be done. the provisions passed on monday are very important to. the question is whether it'll be possible to come to an agreement between the nationstates that oppose the european union, and without affecting the substance, so i think there should be, there is the fact that there is a possibility of the right to be forgotten, the explicit consent to give your data to foreign companies. it is very important. >> it seems there is some consensus building up within the european union. we will see what transpires until the end of the week.
but assuming they agree, what can they do? >> the problem is once you pass legislation, you need to enforce it, as well. so far, there has been very intensive lobbying by american companies, google, facebook, amazon. they have been doing everything they possibly could for that legislation to be passed, and then once you pass the legislation, you are able to work with a company, and then there are the result of the relationship between europe and the united states as opposed to just a legal issue. >> is it a case that we need stronger computers? when we hear that the nsa is going to eavesdrop on phone conversations when specific phone numbers are used, do we just need stronger computers? >> if you give data to a foreign
company, you can have computers as strong as you want. if you give data to companies, that is not going to affect anything. >> james, another question to you in washington. the u.s. has actually not said it would stop all of these nsa activities of spying on a wide range of people here in europe and across the world. >> i do not think it will stop. the only thing is to modify it a bit. but the nsa as organization just keeps growing and growing and growing. the idea that it will shrink is wishful thinking on people's parts. what they have done is basically tough it out, and the white house has gone along with it, and they just keep doing it.
they just hope the storm will blow over. >> we know we have to let you go, urgent matters as you pursue your work. david, so, in the end, indignant for a few days or in till the european council takes place at the end of this week, and then nothing changes? >> the community has initiated a number of initiatives. they're trying to see about the security infrastructures. assuming that the communications channel is being eavesdropped, anything that you transmit can be captured, and how you can maintain secure communications in such an environment. >> these assumptions are made by whom?
>> these are programs. >> within the government? >> over the last weeks. a lot of exchanges, to see how money and resources can be devoted for the emergency programs that would allow this. we need to communicate over networks that we know are insecure. that this would stop or this would change, it is very difficult to check. >> and just to be specific, you said the protocols, the guidelines that are being sent out to academia and others, they assume you can be listened to. that is new? >> no. the point is we always assumed that we can be listened to, but now we have proof that this is actually the case. we cannot change infrastructure with how we communicate, so it
is how we have security while still losing the commodity, which is insecure. today, from the government and from funding agencies. there will be something launched very soon, a major direction. things are moving very quickly now. the other type of changes that are being very active is about the establishment of safe information havens. >> information havens. >> yes. safe information havens. can we create server structures. take gmail, for example, that provides e-mail for everyone. can there be some for those that
are secure in their data? >> i was reading when i was preparing for this debate that france is not quite up-to-date in terms of the way we use our technology, and business leaders, for instance, still send important e-mails about vital contracts from their own, personal, nonsecure computers, things like that. it apparently has not seeped into the french mentalities that information needs to be secured. is that true? is that something that is prevalent in this field? >> well, i guess it depends on which businesses you are talking about. i think some businesses are very well aware of the risks or cyber threats, risks that their data or their information can be affected, and they are setting up ways to protect them selves. >> are they doing these later or
more slowly than some other countries? >> i think that in the u.s., probably, the level of awareness is greater. i think in many other countries, that are not necessarily more advanced. the problem is for midsize or small companies that do not necessarily have the means to protect themselves and do not have devoted people to protect themselves. the issue i is also that you should really consider this risk in terms of a risk at the level of risk management and management of a company, that it should be thought about, and very often, -- i think those issues will raise awareness. >> one of the risks that we underestimated, as this was highlighted by the french government is the fact that they have allowed american companies to provide security, and i think they underestimated the risk.
we have had the government officials mentioned. >> there are no instances of that happening? >> their reliance on microsoft and cisco systems and concerns that they may be involved with the u.s., and we know that companies like google and microsoft and apple and yahoo! and the major social networks have been providing information to the government, so that we know for sure. >> ok, hold that thought. we will be getting back to the second part of the debate in just a few moments right after this break. alright, thousands of tunisians take to the streets calling on the islamic led government to resign, this as dialogue is set to get underway. barack obama set to meet the pakistan prime minister for the
first time, and the prime minister will likely bring up the thorny issue of drone strikes. and then newly blazes burning across new south wales, and they are encouraging vigilance. and russia drops piracy charges against greenpeace activists, charging them with cool again charges instead. and there are the latest. collecting data on political leaders, businesses, and before i go back to our guests, let's bring back in james, who has been doing some information gathering. what are they saying? >> they are picking up on some french media reaction. there is cynicism about the measured response. take a look at this article in the parisian.
they go on to describe the discussions with john kerry yesterday, and a bittersweet anger being expressed, and moving on to michelle makori -- moving on to "le monde," françois hollande has asked for a bilateral collaboration. when a journalist asks about whether or not this activity should be neutralized instead of some sort of cooperation by going ahead, her response was yes, but we know the fight against terrorism, etc., it editor, the many people get cynical about françois holland doing a turnaround. -- francois hollande doing a turnaround. this is now going to be played
out in terms of the way forward. a backlash from europe, and another piece of reporting from "le monde" saying they will be looking at this. the data collection will be on the menu, and the justice commissioner is looking for a strong response. she said at data protection is not a concept. it needs a fundamental law underpinning it. and their records, such as the swift accord, perhaps being canceled, and fines of up to 100 million being placed on companies that transfer this data outside of the eu. >> looking at the divisions in europe. >> that is right. this is interesting, it is apparently if you go back to early this summer, francois hollande did not want the agreement to go ahead.
this was pending some sort of clarity, and apparently david cameron and angela merkel wanted those talks to go ahead, so they went ahead. this was interesting that "le monde" talked about that today. the other is how the nsa has chosen to respond. you are talking about 70 million french calls being recorded. collected is the term that the nsa is contesting. they are saying they did not collect 70 million phone calls. and they said they had a different definition of collection than other people, so i think they are getting down to semantics, and npr in the u.s. has been looking at this, and
they are saying, look, it is the fight against terrorism. 54 attacks have been averted. it has been handed over to congress, but it is classified, and the nsa will not respond to requests from the national public radio in the u.s. or others when they ask for that. it is veiled in a cloak of secrecy. >> the nsa saying that they are not a very reliable source. >> this is along with the data that they have published. >> with their own publishing, the document that they got that was leaked from the nsa source material. >> yes, it is a bit of back and forth. and this is by an algerian cartoonist, where the u.s. ambassador was summoned. i imagine you already know why you are here.
this is with a criticism. and the typical frenchy. >> all right, james, from media watch, thank you very much. let's get back to part two of the debate, and in part one, we have been discussing what we can do, what the rest of the world can do, about the fact that the nsa is spying so extensively and on so many different levels. both in mexico and brazil, germany, at their parts. in the second part of the debate, what do we know about other countries carrying out similar programs? a chair of cyber security, david is a professor here, a member of the computer science department
and a political commentator and analyst, best known to his internet fans as euro maestro, and from strasburg, a member of the european parliament and the green party. and thank you for joining us on france 24. undertaking these activities. i went to develop something. what kind of information is the nsa looking for? it seems like the intelligence -- intelligence gathering is a big part of this. >> there is a lot of academic research going on. exchanging information when they tried to break into the system and find new exploits. and it is a snowball effect, and
you can know what kind of scientific advances they have, and with those scientific advances, you can further advance your own knowledge by leveraging that. so it is quite a game. >> alcatel lucent, they are working in a particularly sensitive area, because they are responsible for some of the underwater cables that carry the digital information. are we talking about economic warfare in terms of getting information that would secure things for one country as opposed to another? >> i think the nsa is trying to get as much data as it can. what it does with it is unclear, but apparently, whether it is technological data, whether it is defense, whatever it is, it
is the same techniques that they can use in order to take advantage, whatever the field. what is interesting is that the nsa is stating it is collecting data only for the purpose of counterterrorism and security, and they are actually accusing the chinese, and this is the major difference between what they are doing and what other people are doing, and what they are actually saying is really, we are the good guys, and you should trust us to do the right thing. the problem we have now is that we know they are not doing the we kight thing, so what do we dn place to make sure they are doing the right thing? >> it is quite clear that the counterterrorismsmsm issue is a pretext, because the size and scale is weighed the line -- beyond -- is way beyond.
this is going on worldwide. we also know about these surveillance that has taken place in the brazilian petrochemical companies, for instance, and we have also seen that they have been spying on the french embassies at the united nations and embassies around the world and the european commission, and there has already been leaks that they have used that for negotiation positions in the united nations, so it is clearly not for counterterrorism efforts. it is also for diplomatic advantages, clinical advantages, and, apparentltly, economic advantages. >> are there those about contracts going one way or another because of the information being gathered? >> we do know for sure about the companies. >> i do not know that.
it is hard to prove, but there are definitely suspicions about some markets that have been taken by the u.s., the information that they were able to collect, and what is interesting is whenever the nsa is being asked about, they are saying, well, if you want us to stop giving you data to help you fight terrorism, that is ok. we will just stop. it is not that we should stop, it is that we should frame the spying programs. that is a little different. >> from the european parliament. the u.s. has said that the spying has been going on, are you concerned that the same thing is happening, those that are less friendly? >> of course.
we have to acknowledge that there is a majority of nine democratic base things in the world, and so it is more than important that we stick to the fundamental principles on those side of the atlantic, and that is exactly what we are pointing out at the moment, after the snowden revelations. is it really the right way to not stick to our fundamental ways, and we have to correct it before we point the finger at certain states. it is important to know that there is tension, economic tension, between the u.s. and the eu, and when you look at airbus and boeing, the nsa does have a creative definition of national security. we need to get into that. we need to line up what national
security means to us, and we need to get right what are the borders for the portion of law enforcement measures. i think this was outside the borders, and we need to react to that and get it right again, and it is the duty of parliamentarians to now point this out in the eu and in the usa. >> we have just been getting information over the last few minutes that angela merkel and another may have been spied on, as well. she spoke to american president barack obama and called this unacceptable. there is a trend, angela merkel saying this is unacceptable, the french saying this is unacceptable. you are going to be very interested in what is coming out of european authorities at the end of the week. the question i want to put to you is you clearly have, you clearly disagree with what the
u.s. is doing in terms of the spying in europe, but officials, observers, they have been saying that european countries do the same thing on their own scale.po the same. >> this is what we are doing right now. just a few weeks ago, we had an inquiry on the attack with an intelligence provider by gchq, which is mostly proven, and i just have to say that with cyber crime, we should look at the
intelligence, whether they are one of the biggest cyber criminals in europe, and i am very disapappointed that they he not taken this up and investigated against these cyber attacks. i think we need to bring it into the right track, and we need to look at the activities inside europe. it is not working anymore, and we need european roots. as the parliament, we do not have the competence to regulate, and we need to change that. >> we have someone tweeting that the u.s. is probably spying on friends, because it is a complete socialist country.
, and they clearly feel that the difference is in politics on both sides of the atlantic, motivating. i want to get into something else. who else is doing this? i have also heard that there is china and russia. >> israel. >> what about spying in the world of electronic surveillance? >> there is the equivalent of the nsa and they have their own university and india as well. we see countries like romania, increasing very much russians, as well.
and there are a number of universities and these institutions, so everybody does a little bit of their own in this field. >> there was an interesting report that came out by a company that is interested in cyber attacks and cyber protection, and this is their take on what is going on around the world in a nutshell. they say there is a cyber war going on, and they say this has become a full-blown war zone as they clash for digital supremacy. and victories are fought with bits in stead of bullets, bot nets instead of bombs. is the word cyber war, warfare, is that the righ vocabulary? >> absolutely. the united states has already indicated that is part of their defense strategy, to concentrate
more on cyber war and digital defense, and i think that is a realistic understanding of how technology has changed the competitive field. >> just maybe one thing is cyberspace is not a natural domain. it does not exist without the action of human beings, and all of the fight that is going on through the networks is a result of geopolitical tensions and rivalries from the real world. they are fighting. they are using networks and new technologies, but a sickly for the same reason, they are fighting with traditional weapons. >> so do we need to have laws for cyber warfare in the same way there are laws of regular or fair? >> if you are talking about personal liberties, there is a fundamental difference in understanding in terms of data protection and privacy, and this
is the problem, because he europe wants to enforce its understanding of rights on american companies and having the united states respect those rights. >> also, there are countries in nondemocratic regimes, and that makes a huge difference for us, and i think that is a major difference. >> that they should essentially be trusted, russia? >> democracies and governments are accountable, and clearly here, we have clearly seen that there are issues of protection, privacy, that there is also how tax money is being used. so having a public debate about what do we want in terms of a balance between democracy, how we protect our civil liberties, what kind of safeguards do we
put in place, what kind of political supervision do we have, and this would not be a concern if it were not a democratic regime, but, as a matter of fact, we are, and i think it is also in the interest of the governments, because these were built on the presumption that they would remain secret, remaining secret in this new world. there are going to be weeks. because so many people believe that snowden is a hero, i think a lot of people are going to want to be heroes, so you are probably going to have more and more of these problems, so if you want to build this up, maybe it is time to have a conversation. >> building up legitimacy and setting up a legal framework for this, i understand that is an important part of the conversation, and both of you seem to accept that this is a cyber war going on, then an equally important part is that every country will want to win the war.
traps just as important as building up the legal framework, i do not know what you think about this, is developing the tools and investing the money, the resources, to be on the winning side of this war? >> it is a computer war. we do not know who developed it, but it works in a very specific way. one of the things that we try to do is measure actually the events, see what is the gap between what we know, and we have been developing ad hoc tools and knowledge, very good people. extremely good skills, so it
gives us a measure of the gap between the academics who work usually with small projects alone and with the agencies do. again, there are a number of small actions, no silver bullet, but a collection of actions that could be put together if we want to contain this threat. as i said, one is to try to find ways to look at the structures, but there is also an action that every citizen can do. we know what are those companies that collaborated with the nsa, and why do we not stop buying products and sanctioning them in an economical way, if we can
stop using their products. the average citizen does not really and things will eventually evolve. >> we just got a tweet. we had talked about angela merkel, that her cell phone may have been spied on, and now she is upset because she may have personally been spied on. where was she when millions were being spied on? moments ago, that she does want things to change. bringing it to the cancel -- counsel. >> i just want to follow-up.
i think the problem with the european union is that it is not as much political as a collection of nationstates, and it is hard enough to do defense together. cyber defense is even more difficult, and there are some that are advancing their capacities, and each of those is collaborating to some degree, with the u.s. intelligence services, so that makes it very difficult to agree on a common position, on a number of these issues, and especially regulation. >> the main players in this cyber war, you have been saying, nationstates. is there a parallel in terms of what we see, developing towards guerrilla warfare? are there groups, those that would handle weapons to cause
significant damage? >> i do not think you can compare the threat to justice spine. i think these are different issues. i do not think the u.s. is looking at the infrastructure. >> what i am saying, could a country come under attack, not by another country, but ryan individual or a group of individuals? >> yes. basically a group of individuals using some very focused technique and then it would be focused very quickly. and there could be some localized damage. this is the answer to your question. >> ok, thank you very much. we would like to thank you for joining us on france 24 "debate ," and we went to thank our